Mainland Womens Premier League

Only 4 in 4 years in WPL

2015 Coastal beat Selwyn 12-0 and Fc20 10-0

2014 Coastal didn't beat anyone by double figs

2013 Coastal didn't beat anyone by double figs

2012 Coastal beat Halswell 12-0 and Western 10-0

In 6 games in 2016 Cashmere have won 23-0, 12-0 and 2 games x 9-0.

But if you take your club cap off and consider what's best for the various players and the league in general, I'm sure you'll agree there are serious issues to be addressed.

The disparity of the league at present is characterised by: a) current Ferns and internationals, b) up and coming national age group team prospects but still developing; c) the rest - a range of quality from very good players at this level to really poor players lacking technical skills and most importantly, d) the very small player base.

Short term fixes:

1. International players pre major tournaments. Pre Olympics, Longo and Moore should definitely be playing in a tougher league (Auckland, Sydney, Melbourne, or in Flea's case Europe, USA, Japan). Likewise, girls in the mix for U17s World Cup in October, Lake and Bray, should probably be in Auckland.

2. Radical idealistic view. Cashmere and Coastal first teams play in Auckland. Their reserve grade teams would be competitive against the other 5 teams. Add Halswell and Selwyn from PDL and you probably have a league that is about right for most of those players.

3. Given that's not going to happen, play only 2 full rounds and then split to a local mini league and a mini Southern league (top 2 teams from each federation).

Medium to long term:

The player base needs to substantially increase, otherwise the drift to Auckland/elsewhere will only increase and the quality of the league will actually get worse. This is the single greatest issue in the game in this part of the world.

I agree, how can two players make so much difference with all the 'Amazing' development work that has been going on over recent years. Of course coastal Women putting a good number past Uni today was fine and their double figure results in 2012, 2015 not a problem.

One result with a higher score than Coastal's record makes it now crap, I do not think so; it has been poor for a number of years. There have only been a couple of challenging games every season.

What have been Coastal women's GD over the season 2012, 3, 4 and 5

The 'Competition' like many of the junior ones is poor.

My question now is what are the issues and how are you going to address them?  

Fully agree: your observations are not a bash at Cash Tech at all: anybody who follows/supports Womens football must be concerned with the paucity of talent in the WPL: how is it that clubs like Nomads, Ferrymead Bays, Halswell, ChCh Utd and Western don't have senior teams? Are Mainland seriously committed to this league or merely paying lip service? Playing copious amounts of young players is not in itself an indication of being them highly talented: most of the young players I've seen this season are technically poor and haven't earnt the right to play at "the top end ". They've simply benefited from the overall lack of quality. I'm not interested in knocking any club in particular: Tech are benefiting at present, just as Coastal did for previous 3-4 seasons. Fair play to them. It's about what is best for the Womens game. Very concerning...

The disparity of the league at present is characterised by: a) current Ferns and internationals, b) up and coming national age group team prospects but still developing; c) the rest - a range of quality from very good players at this level to really poor players lacking technical skills and most importantly, d) the very small player base.

Short term fixes:

1. International players pre major tournaments. Pre Olympics, Longo and Moore should definitely be playing in a tougher league (Auckland, Sydney, Melbourne, or in Flea's case Europe, USA, Japan). Likewise, girls in the mix for U17s World Cup in October, Lake and Bray, should probably be in Auckland.

2. Radical idealistic view. Cashmere and Coastal first teams play in Auckland. Their reserve grade teams would be competitive against the other 5 teams. Add Halswell and Selwyn from PDL and you probably have a league that is about right for most of those players.

3. Given that's not going to happen, play only 2 full rounds and then split to a local mini league and a mini Southern league (top 2 teams from each federation).

Medium to long term:

The player base needs to substantially increase, otherwise the drift to Auckland/elsewhere will only increase and the quality of the league will actually get worse. This is the single greatest issue in the game in this part of the world.

Do not think Moore was playing today.

You forgot 2010 and 2011

2010 Coastal beat Universities 11 - 0 and 13 - 0

2011 Coastal beat Universities 12 - 1  

Interesting comment by the Waimak after the game was that he felt Cashmere Technical have had the plenty of potential in recent years but failed to delivery and this year they have someone that coaching them property to play for 90 minutes.

The two side play again in the Stadium Cars Reta Fitzpatrick Cup on Tuesday evening

Thanks for that AW, I could only find info on Mainland website back to 2012, but today's/this season's results have merely brought the bigger issue to a timely head. I've given my 2c worth. Any other thoughts on potential solutions?

I don't think GG's long-winded post was an anti-Tech rant, more of a state of play after a shocking scoreline. It's me that gets in trouble for hassling Tech remember!

Although it musta struck a nerve considering the anti-Coastal reply that Prickly Thistle went on. Lead by example I say.

Thanks for your input too AW82, perfect.

Maybe, but please, let's deal with the bigger issue.

Mikayla Wiebitz will be heading north shortly to attend the NZ Under 20 World Cup squad training camps in Auckland so will not be paying too many more WPL games going forward.

So AW, with your vast experience, do you have any ideas on solutions?

Why players in their early to mid 20s are not staying around to play at the top level?   

Think that one is self evident - study, work, family take people out of the game and/or Chch. Always been that way. Really talking about ideas to improve the overall quality of the league in general. At present for 2 clubs there are really only 3 games a season where a result is in any doubt, last year it was that way for 3 clubs. It's just not any good for the game.

Agree with AW, would be interesting to see the stats from each team in regards to how many players they have in the 20-25 age bracket.

Sadly my records for the WPL only start from 2010. I think the New Brighton side that won back to back titles had a couple of double diget wins as well in the mid 2000's 

But is the drop off as high in the MPL as the guys have study works (some have family) as well. In recent years with the huge growth in the girl's / women's game there have been plenty of 15, 16, 17 aged players and some even younger debuting in the WPL, is this too young?

To me it doesn't really matter who beat who by more than 10 goals and which season it happened. The finger pointing is also futile and not useful in finding a solution. The issue is that it keeps happening. I don't believe the results are down to a small player pool and I believe it will continue to happen in the short to medium term for one reason - there are currently only 2 clubs with the resources and capability to support a strong women's player development programme in the region which they have been doing very well over the last 5 - 10 or so years, no prizes for guessing who. They will continue to reap the rewards they deserve for the efforts they put in to those programmes for some years to come simply because no one is matching that commitment. Both clubs have good facilities and employ a full time Football Development Manager backed up by other staff and seriously committed volunteers. Both clubs currently sit in the top 2 spots in both MPL and WMPL. Get the picture? This is no mere coincidence.

So what's the solution?

Other clubs have to up the ante. 

Some already are - FC, Waimak (despite today's scoreline), Selwyn. 

Bays, Halswell & Western tried and couldn't sustain it - Mainland need to talk to them and find out why not. Clubs need to demand more from Mainland who need to get in there and help sort it out. What's happening in Mid Canterbury? All clubs have to be aspirational - equally across the guys and girls. Remember we are here for the good of the game. A result like today's is not embarrassing for the Waimak girls - it's embarrassing for everyone involved in the game! Forget the NZF funded Mainland directed development officers working in primary schools (what did this achieve over the past 2 - 3 years as numbers appear to be stagnating/falling in clubs) - support clubs to provide full time employment for more Football Development Managers with professional development programmes in place for them. I am sure if the money spent on those FDO's had supported FDM's in clubs over the past 3 years, with particular regard to the women's game we would be much closer to a much true WMPL competition.

Just my thoughts.

No suggestion that it was an anti Cash - Tech rant. Just asked whether it was something new?

As I thought it has indeed been a problem right through Coastal's reign and well before. Now Coastal's reign appears over, it becomes a problem to face up to, according to GG.

Personally, I think kicking the best players in town out to play elsewhere; players who so obviously show a standard of ability, commitment and fitness that even the rest of the Pride players are struggling to stay with is nonsense.

To raise standards we need to show what is attainable. the girls at Waimak will have learned from the game, if their coaches are doing their jobs.

Our top players need to be paid to front the development programmes and show all our 14 to 18 year olds what being fit is. Some of our senior coaches need to insist on higher standards of commitment if they are serious. 

It would be interesting to hear from Longo as to her thoughts on the standard of players and where they are lacking. From what I have seen those that have and are going on to National recognition have a far better work ethic on and off the park than others and it is so evident in the local game.

Plenty of girls who can do step overs and all sorts of tricks and turns but yet to see ones who can cover the ground like Miss Longo. Athleticism is a major challenge to developing our women's game.

In the men's game we have a number of players who get by with limited technique but plenty of effort and fitness, they manage to ensure that none of our top male players can dominate the way Miss Longo does.

So, first thing for me, to get 6 competitive teams, get 80 fit players. I have seen a bit of our senior and PDL football over the last 3 or 4 years and they appear no fitter now than previously. I have seen fit, athletic committed 13 and 14 year olds not progress, in fact they have regressed over 3 to 4 years and are still fronting for PDL and sometimes WPL sides. 

At least most agree there is a problem, if not the solution.

Just hope it doesn't take 45 years to sort like the schools v clubs debacle ?

I disagree with some of this. Coastal haven't had a really strong pathway in their junior ranks for a few years.

A 15th grade div 2 side this year & the previous few years haven't always had a 13th grade side in div 1 & no teams in 10th or 11th grade (maybe this age plays in their mixed teams?) Both 13th & 15th struggled for numbers this year.

But if a club has put in great efforts into development & with what their premier team has achieved in the last 3-4 years wouldn't numbers in all their grades be flourishing?

As you mention Waimak are 1 club that has upped their ante, Turf field, have an FDO & have strong numbers in all grade for a few years. Wouldn't it have been great if Rebecca Lake, Tahlia Herman-Watt & Hannah Hegarty stayed at Waimak & strengthened that team even more, may have meant a more even competition all round.

I know players move for certain reasons & opportunities but clubs also need to take some responsibility for what they are actually trying to achieve & how they go about that.

Would be interesting to know how many of the current players in the Cash Tech & Coastal sides that played today actually played in these clubs 13th or 15th grade side & used that development pathway?

What would have been even greater is if a certain Parklands coach (not to mention SI tournament and FTC, AGHS as well) had not blatantly stated to his teams that if they wanted to remain in the rep/FTC program they should transfer en masse to Parklands immediately. So as I have stated before in these forums, beware the moral high ground, for it can maketh thee into a target of fine quality...

2 different points - one doesn't automatically lead to the other. When I talk about the strength of a programme I'm talking about results (quality of players developed etc i.e. Pride, NZ reps). These programmes and coaches also attract other players and that is absolutely as it should be for the good of the game. If it benefits a club then so be it, players are mobile these days, why wouldn't they go where they saw the biggest benefit for themselves? I'm not certain of the demographics but fairly confident as you state that Waimak have a far greater catchment of players than Coastal or Cashmere so why do the players leave - quality of the programmes/coaches?

Seeing as you asked, and bearing in mind we've only been around for 8 years....

Whitney Hepburn (13th grade right through)

Emma Clarke (14th grade right through)

Chloe Jones (14th Grade right through)

Melanie Cameron (14th grade right through)

Britney Lee Nicholson (15th grade right through)

Lily Bray (15th grade right through)

Loren Baker (15th grade right through)

Cody Taylor (12th grade right through)

Mackenzie (13th grade right through)

Becky Wilson in 4th season with club (age 18)

And that's just Coastal, I'm pretty sure Cashmere have a similar if not greater number.

No idea, just sticking up for our side. I don't have the stats for Cashmere, AW82 might...

Sorry no. Keeps me busy enough to kept up with the stats and goal scorers for the MPL and WPL.

Doesn't really matter to me tbh, crying over players transferring their allegiance is no way to fix the problem, merely highlights there is one. To me it actually reinforces my earlier point that clubs are underperforming. Is it fair to blame the one's who are performing for causing the problem? 

And here was I thinking we could have an intelligent debate about the problems in the women's game without club eye patches on. Ha, I should have know better!

Sure, players are mobile and move for lots of reasons. Bex, Hannah, Tahlia and Sophie all moved because Waimak couldn't offer top flight football and coaching and quality team and facilities environment just yet; but I think they will be the last Waimak players to head south.

Now, onto the bigger issue.

Ronaldoknow reckons its up to other clubs to lift their game to Cashmere/Coastal level. That’s OK in the long run - I’m sure Waimak, Selwyn, FC numbers will wash through and the Board people I know at those clubs all value the female side of the game as much as the men. However, I really cannot see any other Chch club pushing on. This situation is completely unacceptable for the current top players who need better competition than what is currently on offer in order to progress. They will make their big decisions accordingly in the next year or two.

Prickly thinks the problem with the womens game is getting 80 athletes with the engine of Annalie. I disagree, but lets go with the point of his argument - that fitter players means less blow-out scores, as per the MPL. Even if that is the case, it doesn’t necessarily make for a quality league.

And for those that don’t think this is a numbers game, read on.

The 7 Chch MPL teams (lets say 150 fit players of varying ability) represent about 2% of the 500 odd teams in the male football pyramid from U10 to MPL (excluding over 35s/45s), which doesn’t take into account all the 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 year olds. Obviously, the MPL as a % of the playing base is a much lower figure when taking into account all the young boys in the full football pyramid, probably closer to 1% than 2%.

Compare that to the women’s game. The 6 Chch WPL teams (let’s call it 100 players) = approx 10% of the 76 teams from WPL to U10s (and this figure would be higher if I had excluded the Sunday teams - many of whom are actually masters teams - including the delightfully monikered Ferrymead Bays Oil Paintings).

Given there is also a much smaller % of girls than boys in the 4-9 year old age group, I’d hazard a guess and say the male side of the game is choosing from about 10 times the amount of players than the women. Yet the men are not performing 10 times as well as the women at national/representative level, so the women are doing very well in comparison - with a much smaller base.

The only logical incentive for our best female players to remain in Chch is to ensure quality competition across the entire top league. Each and every club and Mainland need to do 2 things: 1) put resources into getting more girls playing and 2) create the environments to keep them playing.

It’s the top 1% that create a good league, the women simply don’t have the numbers to create a good league. At present it is the top 10% playing WPL, and that’s simply not good enough. We need to boost the numbers playing.

I see plenty of reasonably good ( not great) technicians across the WPL and WPDL, too many are not athletic enough to play.  They have learnt the tricks but can not cover the ground for 90 minutes. They were better athletes at the age of 14.

Agree with that PT. Think reason for that is they can get away with not having to push themselves. 

Certainly not all, but a large portion of girls that 'have made it' into WPL think exactly that- that they have made it!  Lack of numbers allows them to turn the collar up and think they are the business when in reality they are simply the (slightly better) ones still playing at the age of 15. Clubs falling over themselves to keep them (or try and get them across) to build and retain their pathway only feeds this attitude.

It's going to be a long haul for the half a dozen or so serious clubs that want to build a pathway to persist whilst those that aren't simply cherry pick the fruits of their labour.  Good numbers in Waimak, but look at what happened at Selwyn. Only takes a half dozen to move to another club and before you know it there is a team gone. Lot of effort down the toilet simply because of low numbers, and player movements. Worse still that when the results don't eventuate, many of them will just quit at their perceived peak. 

After all, they were a WPL player once upon a time!

If this was an intelligent conversation you wouldn't be having a crack at me GG now would you :) Hard to see how anyone on here doesn't have a club bias in one way or another however what I said was not an intended slight on any club - particularly Waimak who I think are on the right track - nor an outright endorsement of Coastal or Cashmere. All clubs should be looking for continuous improvement including those 2. They just happen to have set the benchmark over the last few seasons and appear to be going from strength to strength. Neither are happy with being the best local club but want to compete on the national stage. Is that not good for local football? Surely that is a good template for other clubs to use/follow? I used Waimak as an example of why it's not purely a numbers game. If it was given the size of the club they should be doing much better in the women's (and men's by the way) game so why aren't they? I think it has to do with the quality of their programmes but hey if I am wrong so be it.

Just my thoughts - I'll leave the rocket science to you :)

P.S.  I agree with PT about the fitness levels. Those girls that got to NZU17, 19 & senior level like Mouse, Ward et al have a superb attitude toward training.

Surely these players started before they were 12 or 13. Not having a go, but it seems unusual to reach this level of ability starting so late.

I note a couple at least that I seem to remember had their grounding with Cashmere. Probably moved for better opportunities. What about the others.

Any that actually started with Coastal?  

I thought that was a good summary during my spare time to hopefully dispel the comment about our team having poached heaps of our players. I don't know much before then, I'm sure they played before, however seeing as they've been with us from between 4 and 10 years I think we can safely allay that rumour. 

It's probably off topic anyways, I was just merely proving someone else's point as incorrect.

A name to watch out for in the years to come [maybe only one more judging by how young the WPL players are] McMeeken.

Moved from Selwyn to Halswell. 

She is no walk around the park player a true motor that will see her be at the top of the local game and beyond. 

Be happy to have her play at Nomads some day.

Glory days are coming back to Nomads some good young girls getting good coaching in the 13th grade.

Let's see how these girls go against the mighty power house of CTFC on Saturday.

Sorry to say but the local ladies/girls WPL league is in worse shape than when Nomads and New Brighton dominated the local and SI game.

How many years ago is that when Nomads won 14 titles in 18 years including 11 in a row the last in 2004..

Nomads have had Junior girls teams since those days but the majority of girls gave up playing at about 14/15 years of age.

I don't think this had anything to do with poor coaching or management just that kids [girls & boys] these days see football as only a passing activity.

Seeing as you asked, here it is straight from the amazing http://www.ultimatenzsoccer.com/DomesticScene/cant...

And as an aside, if someone could help me fill in those League Champions gaps for 73-5, 80 & 83-5, please, I'd very much appreciate it.


As for the topic du jour, http://www.ultimatenzsoccer.com/Scoreboard/latest_...


Cheers,


JR

I never once mentioned anything about Coastal poaching players, I was merely questioning that wouldnt a successful development program & top 1st team see strong numbers throughout all the female grades aswell as producing the quality? Was great that you could provide the actual facts of the players currently playing.

Coastal success over the last 3-4 years has definitely driven most clubs to achieve a higher level.

Slushy, I'm not aware of all the ins & outs of the en masse movement you talk about but I do know that the unnamed coach you were referring to doesn't conduct himself this way & prides himself of trying to develop the female game both at club & district level by teaching good football habits & creating great team environments.(not to say other coaches & clubs don't)

I'm sure most who have dealt with him over the years think the same & show him that due respect.

I agree with the comments on here that there are some players, particularly if they have been U15 or U17 canty reps think that they by right are good WPL players & have made it,  when some of these players should be in PDL. The fitter the player the better the decision making.