(The not-so-temporary quite-official) Gooner Thread (Part 3)

Seems clear that Arteta has taken a look at Ceballos and isn't keen.

He's underwhelmed overall, first game aside.

Step up from Denis Suarez in that he actually got on the pitch and touched the ball, but unsurprisingly loaning a Barca/Real reserve who doesn't really want to be here turned out to be a waste of time again. 

Well TBF to the guy he played well when we as a team played well, and his only other minutes for us were when we were arguably at our worst this season.

I'd like to see him played in a 2 in front of Torriera, likely alongside Xhaka and instead of Ozil as I think he could bring a lot of energy in that role to the pressing, Ramsey like runs, and some decent shooting based on his previous goals.

Arteta's comments have been about fitness, which isn't surprising as he's made that comment about the entire squad, so when your baseline was below what was expected AND you've then had to go and recovering from several months of injury I'm not surprised he hasn't had any minutes.

Given Guendouzi has been showen to have a way to go I think we're nuts to let him go unless we're getting someone else in, otherwise it's just Joe Willock available in CM.

The only loan I've ever been happy with is Benayoun. They barely ever work; the player gets demotivated too quickly.

Sounds like were signing a CB... Pablo Mari, spanish 26yo, currently at flmengo in Brazil, once comtrcted to Man City but didnt play for their first team.
Never heard of him before this.

Mixed reviews, big lad though and apparently reads the game and passes the ball but isn't the quickest. Mertesacker 2.0?

Sounds like the Mari transfer may have fallen over.

Our lineup is interesting this morn.

Nketiah gets a start up top with willock playing no.10 and martinelli/pepe in the wide roles.

Loved the chants of "Fudge VAR" coming through loud and clear on TV. Can only laugh at how the ruler was brought out for Martinelli and frame by frame replays compared to their goal with the offside being checked once then 12 replays of the ball hitting the net. Mike Dean so desperately wanted to rule our one out but just couldn't do it. 

Good to be through and have to take the cup seriously with it being a trophy and another route into Europe.

Mari signing back on.

Not convinced, but we'll see how he goes. Hopefully more Monreal than Squillaci.

Cedric Soares from Southampton?! Not sure how I feel. Another loan and possible conversion to purchase in the summer as a free agent if it's a good fit. Liking this idea of trialing these signings to avoid getting reemed.

I've been thinking about the younger side of our squad, ie those 25 or younger, this could be the starting 11 in a few years: 

                    Macey 

Bellerin   Holding  Saliba   Tierney

Nelson Guendouzi Willock Saka

       Nketiah, Martinelli

Bench: Smith-Rowe, Chambers, Maitlin-Niles, Mavropanos.

Plus other talent in the academy still coming through. Golden talent crop this, give it a couple of years and it could be spectacular.

Mavropanos will be leaving in the (northern) summer I reckon, along with Mustafi.

Willock looked great in the 10 role against Bournemouth. I suspect that's where he'll be long term. He will have to develop really well to be a bonafide starter there for us in years to come mind you.

The Soares signing is interesting in terms of what happens with AMN now.

I think we all thought he was a central mid playing as a fullback, but a while back he strongly claimed that he's actually a right winger. Obviously very versatile, a good squad player to have, but if we don't settle on a spot for him then I can't see him being here long term.

We don't appear to have prioritised a central midfielder like I thought we would, so perhaps the Soares signing will see AMN filling the 4th spot in those roles behind Xhaka, Torreira and Guendouzi? Otherwise doesn't make a lot of sense, particularly considering AMN has played so well at RB under Arteta so far, and he doesn't seem to like Ceballos.

Not sure where Ceballos fits in, if anywhere. He doesn't seem to be a deeper lying midfielder, or a number 10, for me. Perhaps he's more suited to a 4-3-3, playing on the left of the middle three, but Arteta doesn't seem to favour that sort of formation.

I think you're right Surge, Mustafi and Mavropanos will likely be moved on. Mustafi for obvious reasons, and Mavropanos just hasn't quite come through, although to be fair to him that's mostly through injuries.

If we assume a constant 4-3-2-1 under Arteta (probably a bad assumption, but makes this task easier), perhaps in the short to mid term, when fully fit, our first and second choice elevens look something like this;

                      Leno

Bellerin-Chambers-Luiz-Tierney

             Xhaka-Torreira

            Pepe-Ozil-Martinelli

                Aubameyang

                  Martinez

Soares-Sokratis-Mari-Kolasinac

           Guendouzi-AMN

       Nelson-Willock-Saka

                 Lacazette

Not mentioned above: Holding, Nketiah, Ceballos

Obviously a few subjective decisions in there i.e. the CBs, Tierney vs Kola, Auba or Martinelli on the wing which determines Laca's spot, etc etc, but it does give a basic idea on where we're at with the squad.

The Laca one is interesting, would be a bold move to drop him. I think the problem is with our formation is Auba would be wasted doing Laca's job as he has to drop deep for lay offs. Working out wide he actually is a better goal threat as we get that overload on the left which frees him up to become the central striker.

The other interesting one is Chambers vs Sokratis. I think Sokratis is looking better and better in this shape and it's a hard call to bump him out.

It's bloody nice to have hard calls on positions across CB, LB, and Striker.

Brilliant. Another injured loan signing. Perhaps he might be available for the last game or two of the season when it's too late.

Are we still that cut up over Luiz Suarez that we're going to keep trying to sign players with that surname, or variants of it?

Kim Kallstrom helped us win an FA Cup, let's hope Soares does the same.

I'm okay with it. Another low risk, low cost signing who we can get rid of easily if he doesn't work out. Adds some depth, still fighting for the FA Cup + Europa league, so we'll likely need it.

Super disappointing day for Ozil, Auba, and Laca today. I think using Guendouzi for his size was a mistake, given he is shark in the air. I found him quite useless today, would have enjoyed seeing Ceballos and Willock on for him and Ozil, it would have given the team some drive and directness which we were lacking.

Another weekend passes us by dropping points when those above us do the same.

ozil hasnt assisted in over 2 years... without them, what does he bring to the team!? felt the game got away from us with sakas injury. 

With the relative mediocre standard of the Premier League this season (apart from Liverpool) it is ironic to know that Liverpool finished fourth in 2003-04 with only 60 points, the lowest of any team to finish in the top four of a Premier League campaign.

That record is not likely to be broken this season with Chelsea on 41 points currently and 13 games to go but it probably won't be far off.

I thought we played well for the first 20-25 minutes and then the wheels fell off. We were competing really well; Auba really needed to take one of his chances.

Our problem at the moment is chance creation - the midfield 3 are just not working that well together. We need more quality in there. I don't understand why Ceballos isn't getting a chance.

Arteta has helped our defence but going forward we're still so poor, and that hasn't changed from Emery's time.

is it too late to ask Wenger to come back - at this point I'd be happy to be challenging for 4th spot again.

16 years since he won the league.

true, but his battles for 4th were better than holding onto 12th by goal difference from burnley

I think the only thing in his favour is he's joined at the most congested time, when we were at our worst. Most of these guys haven't had more than a day or two off which doesn't help nor has he had more than 2 - 3 days between matches, and I think prioritising sorting the defence was key to stop the rot. Now with the winter break hopefully he can use the camp in Dubai to work on the attacking side of things.

I'd still like to see us try Ozil in a false 9 with Pepe and Auba ahead of him. Put Ceballos, Torreira, and Xhaka behind him for energy and stability and get our full backs bombing forward.

I just think it's a player issue now. That can't be resolved until the summer.

Ozil hasn't got an assist since the fudgeing Big Bang.

Ozil is costing us 18m+ a year. Do you let him go for free in the summer if someone takes him on?

I'm unsure if it's worth subsidising his wages though - even if we halve them we end up with £9m for nothing. Price tag for making shark decisions?

Mrs outdid herself today, sorted the away strip for my berfday. Don't think I've ever had an away kit before!

Gave me an excuse to go back and find this post again. 

Did anyone get the re-do of the Banana kit Adidas released under extortionate pricing? Have seen a couple out and about and I'm definitely regretting not getting it.

Get rid of him ASAP. If we free up 9m, that's 9m we can spend on someone who will actually contribute.

Personally I think Arteta wants to play a 4-3-3 most of the time without a 10, ideally. We just don't have the players for it right now.

In the summer - we need an attack focused box to box (ala Ramsey), another midfielder - probably a Xhaka replacement - and a CB.

Probably nothing to it, considering he's just taken that development role at FIFA, but saw some rumours this morn that the club heirarchy are looking to bring Wenger back in some sort of role.

Ooh that would excite me so much. I miss him being around the club, just generally. I'd love nothing more than having him in a role of some sort in our club management.

I think it's more just bringing him back to the Stadium - not in any official capacity

I'm regretting not getting one back in the early 2000's off ebay when sellers couldn't give them away.

Apparently Juventus are looking to sell Ramsey at the end of the season.

I love Ramsey and all that he gave us (2 FA Cups) but we need to move on. Has been injured most of the season (again). If he came on a really low wage, then sure, but Juve will want 20-30m

Yea I don't see him coming back to us. I would love it but that ship has sailed, we would be mugs to pay a big fee after he left on a free.

Could see him going to Liverpool tbh. Suits Klopp's style. They have money. Wouldn't be very nice for us to see him playing there mind you.

Don't think any prem club will sign him with his injury history unless on a free

I think heaps of clubs would sign him. For many he would be a great signing. But he isn't what we need. 

Juve would sell for 20-30m, he hasn't gone a season without seriously disruptive injuries for, what, 5 years?

It's amusing reading these comments and observing the parallels between the downfalls of United and Arsenal.

First blame the manager -> get in a big name -> big name fails get in next manager -> realise players aren't up to it and start again

The fact is, both Arsenal's and United's squads absolute pale in comparison to the likes of City and Liverpool. Most of City's bench would start for either team. There's a subset of fans who think you can just get in the right manager and magically coach the players to greater heights, but it is difficult and rare, and it's exactly what every other team in the league is doing.

The cold hard truth is that a manager is not a silver bullet in all but the rarest of cases. One example is perhaps Sheffield United, but the chances that this actually translate to continuous long term success is low.

At the same time teams like United and Arsenal need to realise that below the like's of City's "own everyone who is half decent" policy, is an extremely wealthy league all with players who can turn it when it suits. I think almost all teams in the top 10 have players who could start for United and Arsenal. That wasn't the case a few years ago.

tl;dr the players aren't good enough and teams outside the top 4 are closer than they've ever been

I agree to a certain extent, but there is absolutely no doubt we should be doing better with the players we currently have. We are fudgeing 10th. You can't tell me that most of the squads above us have better players.

That is purely and simply down to the coaching.

Interesting and reasoned comments imo 20legend.

I agree with a lot, and there are definitely parallels between Arsenal and ManU and how things have gone since their long-term Managers departed, but I still don't think it's as simple and neat as that narrative either. Lots of stuff feeds into a successful team, and you can actually win things with inferior players and/or an inferior manager if you get everything else right.

We have lots of examples of teams winning through all sorts of different strengths.

Leicester's title win for example, was achieved with a set of players, that while awesome, were definitely inferior as a whole to multiple teams in the league that season. And their Manager was inferior to other Managers in the league too.

Their strengths were that they were unified, they had nice squad balance with clear roles that they all understood, they were lucky with injuries so that their squad depth was not exposed, their rivals all had weak seasons or were in rebuilding phases, and they had the added bonus that they were not burdened by European football when it came to the run-in.

Chelsea's title win under Conte was interesting too. Their squad was relatively unchanged in terms of key personnel from the season before, when they were very poor, and yet they stormed to the title. Conte implemented a clear structure and simple style that they all immediately bought into. And they too were not burdened with European football in the run-in.

The Sheffield example you cited is a great representation of how it's just not black and white. You cite that as an example of a Manager being a silver bullet but not really in my opinion. The team has continuity and experience together. They have built a pretty innovative style over 4 years, and kept mostly the same personnel together. They've stuck to their principles through promotion and not moved away from it. I think it's a triumph of teamwork and buy-in to a philosophy, rather than their Manager being the silver bullet.

There is a common thread through these successful teams though, and that's the philosophy, attitude, and guiding principles, whatever they may be. In the end, all the most successful teams seem to be ones where the full squad buys in to all that stuff, knows their roles, and gets it done. I think that's why ManU and Arsenal have turned to people like Solsjkaer and Arteta respectively, because that seems to be the main message from those guys. Club values, club principles, footballing philosophy. Get on board with it or get out. Obviously we don't yet know if they will work out, but the intentions seem to be the right ones, so will be interesting to see.