we just need Phoenix fans to win powerball a few weekends in a row.
Alternative Wellington Stadium
Doloras, did you ever go to a Pink Floyd concert? They were well worth going to big croud or small croud.
I was considering going to see Roger Waters when he played NHS, but the thing about the Floyd (or Roger solo) was that you went for the lightshow and the contact high, since the music was always identical to what was on the record. Tool would be a similar group.
/wow this is off topic
To a degree, it was a problem that needed a NZ wide solution. Every City wants something to host the really big games (of whatever sport), when the population of NZ is such that in NZ we can really only have one large stadium and the rest all of a smaller boutique sort of size, relevant to the population of that area and the sports they regularly host.
The reality is there should be one large stadium in Auckland that hosts pretty well all All Black matches against anyone that matters, with the scraps of all other sports tossed around the 3 or 4 "regional" type stadia in the Hamilton, Wellington, Christchurch and Dunedins.
Cities can not afford to have large stadia sitting empty on the off chance they get a decent All Black game every two or three years
This
You have hit the nail right on the head....
NZ for its size is way over the top in the number of big stadia. When you consider England....they have Wembley and thats the national stadium and where Englands football team play the vast majority of their home games..ditto for Twickenham for rugby. In France the national football and rugby teams play the bulk of their games in the national stadium in Paris(with the occasional friendly played in Marseille) You look at other even smaller countries in Europe and the same thing happens...the national teams play most of their games in the national stadium.
However in good 'ol NZ rugby is king. Every biggish city is paranoid that they will lose the chance of an annual All Black test if they don't bankrupt their rate payers and build a 30,000 plus stadium. Its just absurd how many big grounds we have. There must be billions of $$$ tied up in stadia across NZ. Dunedin with a population of just over 100,000 spent $200 + million on a rugby stadium...madness. It has not helped that the NZRFU has decided to turn the AB's into a "club" team that plays 7+ home games a year...no chance to play all those in Auckland.
But nothing will change...we are cursed with too many of the wrong sort of stadia but there is neither the $$$ or the public will to do anythin about it. The decision to make Westpac an oval was made at a time when they needed dual usage across winter and summer for rugby and cricket to maximise its usage, Like all compromises you never end up getting a solution that pleases everyone.
One area that NZ stadium designers have seriously missed out on is other commercial usage to offset running costs. If you visit modern stadia in the USA or Europe the first thing you notice is how much commercial activity is going on. Many modern stadia incorporate hotels, bars restaurants, office space etc that run all week. We are stuck in a "we need an event" mentality that fails to address other ways to make revenue.
We are stuck with Westpac..and we will be stuck with it unless it gets flattened by an earthquake or something. The Hutt wreck gave us a glimpse of what might have been....
Austin you get 4 likes but how many people were against the World Cup qualifiers being held in Auckland? The NZRU simply has to play more games a year because of their bottom line. Personally, I like the fact that Wellington is a city which can attract big events. Do we really want to live in a country where we have to get on a plane in order to watch any major sporting event? Westpac Stadium only actually required $40 million of public money. Given that the stadium at Petone Rec was going to cost $20 million of public money it seems to me that Westpac Stadium was a good deal for Wellington. I don't really see how one could be against Westpac recieving $40 million but pro the Petone Rec recieving $20 million. When the stadium cost $40 million of public money and some people want us to spend $55 million on keeping Trolley buses I sort of shake my head. The Rugby World Cup, Sevens each year, All Blacks test, World Cup qualifiers, Cricket World Cup etc I think that $40 million was easily paid off. There is no way Wellington rate payers have been bankrupted by the stadium as far as I can tell. In Dunedin? Maybe
As has been said, I can't recall anyone who believe at the time that Westpac was too large
Your 40 million was close to 20 years ago when the total cost of the stadium was 130m. Cost to build now would be 500m or more so that 40m would be closer to 200m of todays dollars which is a lot of money as was the 40m then.
Yes we all like the fact that we get a big stadium in Auckland Wellington Dunedin and probably Christchurch, but the issue is that they are only used to anywhere near capacity for maybe 2 x a year, on average. That is the issue. We have stadia all over the country that are massively under utilised and oversized for what the population of the area can actually reasonably utilise.
I agree that the price of building stadiums has increased massively. However, we are not debating whether or not Westpac Stadium would be cost effective if we built it now. If we hadn't built a stadium and the Council suggested a 200 million loan now then I would probably be dead against it. When it was built the council put up 40 million (in 1995) towards it which is 60 million when you compare in today's dollars. Just because stadiums might have tripled in price to build over that same time period does not mean the amount of money we paid as a loan also tripled.
I don't see a stadium as under utilised if it is making money. If the stadium was smaller and rectangular would it make much more money? I'm not sure. I do know that in that situation Wellington would have lost a lot more money. I guess I just can't see how, if you are the council and you spend 40 million on a stadium, you get more than 40 million back in events to your city which you wouldn't have otherwise have gotten, while your stadium makes a tidy profit, that that stadium could be a bad investment.
The Wellington 7's has injected $15 million into our local economy most years it has been held. Therefore 4 sevens tournaments were all it took to pay off that 40 million dollar loan adjusted for 2015 prices. There is no way the Sevens would have been held here if we hadn't built Westpac Stadium. There have been what 10 successful 7's tournaments? That's $150 million for our local economy. The Rugby World Cup apparently injected $94 million into our local economy. It would have been a lot less if we only had a 20,000 seat stadium.
So does New Zealand need so many big stadiums? Probably not. Which is why the New Zealand government should not invest any more money in New Zealand stadia. If Christchurch wants a big stadium then they should fund it themselves. In the case of Wellington we decided to build Westpac not because New Zealand needed another big stadium but because Wellington needed a big stadium if we wanted to be a city which had any big events at all.
Ryan54...you are right to say that at the time nobody thought the stadium was too big....in fact many thought that it was not big enough. The point I am making is that its great that the big cities of NZ like Auckland, Wellington and Christchurch have good stadia, and so they should but we still have way too much stadium capacity across the country for our population size.
Interesting stats out from the people running the stadium today. Ten years 600,000 people went to the Westpac stadium in that financial year.....last year that number was down to 439,638
Ten years ago there were 444, 573 people who went to watch rugby.....last year that number had fallen to 215,993.....that is an astonishing collapse in support. ( football went from zero to 100,000......go the Nix)
So basically the NZRFU have screwed their product.....which is another story.
No body could have predicted the change in attendance......but its a commercial reality now that people are not sufficiently motivated to pay money to freeze their arses off in a wind swept half empty cavernous stadium eating ripoff food and drinking crap beer. Which brings us full circle in the argument ....... in 2015 you need to offer a better product or people won't go. Hence the boutique stadium argument. Apart from issues with viewing lines and no roof most people were favourably impressed by their Hutt Wreck experiance........which is more than you can say about the general feelings about Westpac
I think it should be up to local communities to decide what sort of stadium they want. In Wellington we chose to have a big one and I think it has been successful. In Dunedin they also chose to have a big one but I feel that it won't be so successful for them. Either way they have to live with the consequences. If a local council can build a stadium, fund it themselves and believe that stadium will bring more to the local economy then I say all power to them.
The Hutt Rec was great. Whether you would get enough people there over a whole season though I'm not quite sure. I also still don't think it is fair for people from Lower Hutt to fork out $20 million to build a stadium for a team which doesn't yet have a license extension. In 2015 we absolutely would have built a different stadium to Westpac. I just don't think any solution suggested is better than the status quo.
Oi watch it there, we have the best cricket and footie/rugby grounds in NZ!
Ahem. Somewhat pedantic I know, but Dunedin would raise a tentative hand to question that statement.
Mostly irrelevant to the current conversation, but the covered roof has made going to sport in this city such a different experience. Whether or not it's affordable is a different question.
yeah and you get Rod Stewart too
Doloras, did you ever go to a Pink Floyd concert? They were well worth going to big croud or small croud.
I was considering going to see Roger Waters when he played NHS, but the thing about the Floyd (or Roger solo) was that you went for the lightshow and the contact high, since the music was always identical to what was on the record. Tool would be a similar group.
/wow this is off topic
Sorry what? Live Tool are identical to their albums? Wrong thread but fudge no.
The Rugby World Cup, Sevens each year, All Blacks test, World Cup qualifiers, Cricket World Cup etc I think that $40 million was easily paid off. There is no way Wellington rate payers have been bankrupted by the stadium as far as I can tell. In Dunedin? Maybe
As has been said, I can't recall anyone who believe at the time that Westpac was too large
Who made money from all these events? The same people who fronted up with the cash?
Just get all the footy following new migrants to settle in wgtn.
I think we have already done that, poms everywhere
The Rugby World Cup, Sevens each year, All Blacks test, World Cup qualifiers, Cricket World Cup etc I think that $40 million was easily paid off. There is no way Wellington rate payers have been bankrupted by the stadium as far as I can tell. In Dunedin? Maybe
As has been said, I can't recall anyone who believe at the time that Westpac was too large
Who made money from all these events? The same people who fronted up with the cash?
So now we get interesting, I believe the "Stadium Trust" was actually loaned the $40m by the Councils (GWRC $25m, WCC $15m) and had to pay the whole sum back, which is what the "Stadium fee" on our tickets was, that $2 was to go to pay the loan off. $57m in Grants, Donations etc, and $33m in a loan from ANZ.
The Stadium must make money every year (Break even), and any'profit' made is reinvested back into the Stadium, now I believe they were 20 year loans, and should now be paid off (Don't quote me), so the loans are now cleared and the money previously used to pay for those is now going into investment in the Stadium itself.
Now my own thought here is it'd be great if the Stadium Trust itself now put some of that money aside into a "replacement" stadium fund, with the thought that at some point in the future the stadium is no longer fit for purpose it can be replaced with the Stadium Trust being able to put forward the "deposit" (Just my idea, and for all I know they may already be doing this)
To a degree, it was a problem that needed a NZ wide solution. Every City wants something to host the really big games (of whatever sport), when the population of NZ is such that in NZ we can really only have one large stadium and the rest all of a smaller boutique sort of size, relevant to the population of that area and the sports they regularly host.
The reality is there should be one large stadium in Auckland that hosts pretty well all All Black matches against anyone that matters, with the scraps of all other sports tossed around the 3 or 4 "regional" type stadia in the Hamilton, Wellington, Christchurch and Dunedins.
Cities can not afford to have large stadia sitting empty on the off chance they get a decent All Black game every two or three years
This
You have hit the nail right on the head....
NZ for its size is way over the top in the number of big stadia. When you consider England....they have Wembley and thats the national stadium and where Englands football team play the vast majority of their home games..ditto for Twickenham for rugby. In France the national football and rugby teams play the bulk of their games in the national stadium in Paris(with the occasional friendly played in Marseille) You look at other even smaller countries in Europe and the same thing happens...the national teams play most of their games in the national stadium.
However in good 'ol NZ rugby is king. Every biggish city is paranoid that they will lose the chance of an annual All Black test if they don't bankrupt their rate payers and build a 30,000 plus stadium. Its just absurd how many big grounds we have. There must be billions of $$$ tied up in stadia across NZ. Dunedin with a population of just over 100,000 spent $200 + million on a rugby stadium...madness. It has not helped that the NZRFU has decided to turn the AB's into a "club" team that plays 7+ home games a year...no chance to play all those in Auckland.
But nothing will change...we are cursed with too many of the wrong sort of stadia but there is neither the $$$ or the public will to do anythin about it. The decision to make Westpac an oval was made at a time when they needed dual usage across winter and summer for rugby and cricket to maximise its usage, Like all compromises you never end up getting a solution that pleases everyone.
One area that NZ stadium designers have seriously missed out on is other commercial usage to offset running costs. If you visit modern stadia in the USA or Europe the first thing you notice is how much commercial activity is going on. Many modern stadia incorporate hotels, bars restaurants, office space etc that run all week. We are stuck in a "we need an event" mentality that fails to address other ways to make revenue.
We are stuck with Westpac..and we will be stuck with it unless it gets flattened by an earthquake or something. The Hutt wreck gave us a glimpse of what might have been....
Austin you get 4 likes but how many people were against the World Cup qualifiers being held in Auckland? The NZRU simply has to play more games a year because of their bottom line. Personally, I like the fact that Wellington is a city which can attract big events. Do we really want to live in a country where we have to get on a plane in order to watch any major sporting event? Westpac Stadium only actually required $40 million of public money. Given that the stadium at Petone Rec was going to cost $20 million of public money it seems to me that Westpac Stadium was a good deal for Wellington. I don't really see how one could be against Westpac recieving $40 million but pro the Petone Rec recieving $20 million. When the stadium cost $40 million of public money and some people want us to spend $55 million on keeping Trolley buses I sort of shake my head. The Rugby World Cup, Sevens each year, All Blacks test, World Cup qualifiers, Cricket World Cup etc I think that $40 million was easily paid off. There is no way Wellington rate payers have been bankrupted by the stadium as far as I can tell. In Dunedin? Maybe
As has been said, I can't recall anyone who believe at the time that Westpac was too large
Your 40 million was close to 20 years ago when the total cost of the stadium was 130m. Cost to build now would be 500m or more so that 40m would be closer to 200m of todays dollars which is a lot of money as was the 40m then.
Yes we all like the fact that we get a big stadium in Auckland Wellington Dunedin and probably Christchurch, but the issue is that they are only used to anywhere near capacity for maybe 2 x a year, on average. That is the issue. We have stadia all over the country that are massively under utilised and oversized for what the population of the area can actually reasonably utilise.
I agree that the price of building stadiums has increased massively. However, we are not debating whether or not Westpac Stadium would be cost effective if we built it now. If we hadn't built a stadium and the Council suggested a 200 million loan now then I would probably be dead against it. When it was built the council put up 40 million (in 1995) towards it which is 60 million when you compare in today's dollars. Just because stadiums might have tripled in price to build over that same time period does not mean the amount of money we paid as a loan also tripled.
I don't see a stadium as under utilised if it is making money. If the stadium was smaller and rectangular would it make much more money? I'm not sure. I do know that in that situation Wellington would have lost a lot more money. I guess I just can't see how, if you are the council and you spend 40 million on a stadium, you get more than 40 million back in events to your city which you wouldn't have otherwise have gotten, while your stadium makes a tidy profit, that that stadium could be a bad investment.
The Wellington 7's has injected $15 million into our local economy most years it has been held. Therefore 4 sevens tournaments were all it took to pay off that 40 million dollar loan adjusted for 2015 prices. There is no way the Sevens would have been held here if we hadn't built Westpac Stadium. There have been what 10 successful 7's tournaments? That's $150 million for our local economy. The Rugby World Cup apparently injected $94 million into our local economy. It would have been a lot less if we only had a 20,000 seat stadium.
So does New Zealand need so many big stadiums? Probably not. Which is why the New Zealand government should not invest any more money in New Zealand stadia. If Christchurch wants a big stadium then they should fund it themselves. In the case of Wellington we decided to build Westpac not because New Zealand needed another big stadium but because Wellington needed a big stadium if we wanted to be a city which had any big events at all.
Interesting take on Economics / Accounting. Just because an event brings in $15m does not mean the $40m is effectively repaid. That figure, and I have always been very dubious about the amounts quoted by those who promote such things, is activity only, making bars hotels etc somewhat more profitable for that very short period. They are still paying the same rates, it is not linked to profit or turnover.
I am glad we have a biggish stadium here, but my point is the uncordinated approach that has taken place nationally has seen too many of these stadiums that no one at all is really happy about, anywhere. No stadium in the country has its users and the public happy.
The stadium continues to return a small operating surplus every year. How long will this continue if the downward sprial in overall use continues? Patronage overall down about 30% since the early years despite the nix being a new tennant adding around 100,000 spectators pa. The profit used pretty much to repay borrowings. The stadium is showing its age and small titivations like the Mezzanine bar are really only putting lipstick on a pig so to speak and someday, in the not too distant future, it will need some serious coin spent on it otherwise patronage will continue to decline.
Hopefully when the time comes to spend that money decent innovative solutions will be put in place
Hearing the Auckland stadiums reshuffle is looking increasingly unlikely and not because the Warriors don't want to move but more due to the cost and logistics of converting the stadiums, particularly Mt Smart into a speedway.
I could have told them that...
Would we have got the Under 20 World Cup if we hadn't got the stadia we have? At least Fifa are impressed. Hopefully the NZ public will turn up in droves and fill em up.
I could have told them that...
No. I'd have already told all the blow-in residents from Grey Lynn to fudge off and stop whining about Speedway.
Don't like it? Move to Papakura.
Move the speedway to papakura. Now that's a good idea !!
Would we have got the Under 20 World Cup if we hadn't got the stadia we have? At least Fifa are impressed. Hopefully the NZ public will turn up in droves and fill em up.
Ha. We'll be lucky for crouds of more than a couple thousand for some of these games...
Hearing the Auckland stadiums reshuffle is looking increasingly unlikely and not because the Warriors don't want to move but more due to the cost and logistics of converting the stadiums, particularly Mt Smart into a speedway.
Move the speedway to papakura. Now that's a good idea !!
Ardmore. Already got noise consent.
Hearing the Auckland stadiums reshuffle is looking increasingly unlikely and not because the Warriors don't want to move but more due to the cost and logistics of converting the stadiums, particularly Mt Smart into a speedway.
The Warriors not wanting to move is only a minor
No. I'd have already told all the blow-in residents from Grey Lynn to fudge off and stop whining about Speedway.
Don't like it? Move to Papakura.
I live close enough that the Speedway noise is sometimes bothersome, but then on other nights we can hear the lions and monkeys in the zoo which is cool.
I was looking forward to seeing test cricket at Western Springs but I suppose Eden Park no 2 will also be nice. The moral of the story is: all stadiums are either hated, or lose money, so don't bother.
(Groff: I was referring to Tool's light show. I've only seen them once at the BDO and I wasn't familiar with the music then.)
Ha all good, a bit defensive there obviously :)
Build and they will come -
'A Year after opening Cambridge's Avantidrome has bucked the conventional wisdom that sports stadiums are loss-making white elephants.
The Waikato's $28 million sports facility runs at a profit and is credited with assisting a housing boom at nearby Cambridge as athletes, coaches and young families with an interest in cycling move into town. It's also drawn wide praise for getting the community onside.
The successful financial model rests upon the rental income derived from 3000 sq m of commercial space
"Rental income is the most significant item of the balance sheet" says CEO Geoff Balme. "We've attracted tenants including Cycling NZ, High Performance NZ, Para Cycling NZ, the University of Waikato and Revolve Cafe. Canoe Racing NZ is expected to arrive later this year. I think encouraging use from local families, clubs and organisations has been key to our success. The track had 22,000 community rides in its first year. Elite athletes use it only about 10% of the time."
...
Cambridge Chamber of Commerce CEO Tara Whitford says the Avantidrome has been a key reason why Cambridge is now growing rapidly. "The facility is often part of their (young families) decision to come here."
etc.etc.
- today's NZ Herald: The Business p.17
It's also drawn wide praise for getting the community onside.
Just imagine if people had done that with Petone?
Come on people appreciate what you have, we're heading back to the Ring of Fire!
Yay.
PAX?
PAX?
That seems like pretty decent early pax
~4000 members
~4000 members
+ 2000 stadium members.....
Found this and ok it's Wiki but....
The all-seater Darlington Arena was opened in 2003, at a cost of £18 million. The first game at the new stadium was a 2–0 loss to Kidderminster Harriers on 16 August 2003. The attendance of 11,600 still stands as a record for the ground.[68] Though the stadium can seat up to 25,000 people, the club is restricted to just 10,000 because of county and local planning regulations.[
Darlington Link If you click on the pic on this link it opens it up for a better view. Looks a great little stadia just what we would like or need. Perhaps a lower size attendence wise but look at the cost, even if it was 12 years ago.
Unfortunately an alternative stadium will take just about as long as Transmission Gulley did before it comes to fruition
They built a 25000 seat stadium, the record croud is less than half that and due to local planning they're only allowed 10000....... weird. Or have I read that wrong?
I read it like that as well, either they made a mistake and wasted lots of money for nothing or the goal posts were moved on them (which is what would happen here).
Maybe the extra capacity was an investment for the future? That 'local planning' policy may not be in effect 20 years down the track ...
Maybe the extra capacity was an investment for the future? That 'local planning' policy may not be in effect 20 years down the track ...
Once all the elderly NIMBYs have 'moved away from the area'
Maybe the extra capacity was an investment for the future? That 'local planning' policy may not be in effect 20 years down the track ...
Once all the elderly NIMBYs have 'moved away from the area'
Or died.
edit: oh yes thats what you meant haha
Maybe the extra capacity was an investment for the future? That 'local planning' policy may not be in effect 20 years down the track ...
PS. The club went bust 3 times after this stadium was built, in the last one was 'saved' by a fan group, but have been recreated at the bottom of the pyramid as Darlington 1883. They now ground share with Darlington Rugby Club.
Also the rule was made after design work etc by the Council because of lack of transport solutions, though they never looked at getting bigger crouds than 10,000 anyway :)