That's a good idean and I think NZ football, OFC, and FIFA really need to consider it. It actually is a genius idea. Only problem is it would be geographically incorrect if Australia is part of AFC and some of the countries to the North of Australia (who are closer to the mainland of Asia) are in OFC. Maybe we should take the Phillipines, Singapore, Malaysia, Brunei, AND Australia to save confusion.
All Whites' Oceania/Asia Confederation Conundrum
That's a good idean and I think NZ football, OFC, and FIFA really need to consider it. It actually is a genius idea. Only problem is it would be geographically incorrect if Australia is part of AFC and some of the countries to the North of Australia (who are closer to the mainland of Asia) are in OFC. Maybe we should take the Phillipines, Singapore, Malaysia, Brunei, AND Australia to save confusion.
More play against quality opposition will no doubt better NZ football.
We've done it the hard way ('82) before, we can do it again.
Y not play more home games in other parts of the country, ie mix it up a bit (Chch, Wellington, Dunedin, as well as Akl)???
Does anyone know how much money would come our way from AFC competitions compared with the Women and age-group teams qualifying for world cups?
It seems to me that the biggest argument people are advancing for the status quo is money - but is it really that significant a difference?Dragon2007-06-26 16:52:20Does anyone know how much money would come our way from AFC competitions compared with the Women and age-group teams qualifying for world cups?
It seems to me that the biggest argument people are advancing for the status quo is money - but is it really that significant a difference?Dragon2007-06-26 16:52:20"The confidence is because FFA has engaged the Singapore headquartered sports media, marketing and events company, World Sports Group, to sell the rights to the A-League in return for a sum believed to be in the vicinity of $35 million per annum. This is for the A-League only. Socceroos games are not included.
The rights to Socceroos games are already owned by World Sports Group and will continue to be until at least 2020 as set out in this announcement.
The fact that FFA has been able to package the Socceroos rights with the A-League to Fox Sports up until now is because World Sports Group allowed this to happen. Under the new arrangement, World Sports Group will retain the rights to Socceroos games as part of their long term AFC deal, but FFA will no longer be able to on-sell them.
Instead, they will receive around $1 million for each Socceroos game directly from the AFC – as do all member associations – which may well be a very good deal in light of the proposed anti-siphoning legislation that requires Socceroos qualifiers to be on free-to-air in a relatively small Australian television industry.
Although the TV rights have been presented as one of the impediments to more independence for the A-League and its owners – on the basis that the Socceroos rights accounted for around 70 percent of the total rights – the arrangement with World Sports Group for A-League rights shows this is not relevant.
All-up, when FFA announces the new deal for broadcast rights (TV plus digital), probably to come into effect one year early, it is likely be in the vicinity of $60 million per year made up of:
- $35 million for the A-League, although World Sports Group could well retain a commission of around 20% for their work on behalf of FFA, which leaves a net payment of about $28 million per year.
- the value of the Socceroos rights of between $15 million – $20 million, but which World Sports Group retains as they own the rights.
- around $6 million for an average of six Socceroos matches per year from the AFC.
- rights to any friendly matches which are FFA’s to sell if played at home, or if a host nation cedes rights to Australian audiences for an away match, and
- a minimum of $4 million for the digital rights that are currently with Optus.
- _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
- Football Federation Australia has yearly revenue of about $AU 97 MILLION to work with annually - see the 2009 Annual Report (page 12) available online:
Got this reply from Herald journo Terry Maddaford to my email to him on his report on the weekend where he advocates NZ stay in the OFC for reasons of financial gain, after I mentioned info from the report above about the substantial amount the FFA makes from TV coverage revenue.
Can see his point about the cost of assembling age group sides to travel to games around Asia - but surely the TV money from Socceroos internationals would cover that and then leave some over?
His report (second half is on NZ staying in Oceania):
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10834212
His rely to me:
"Hi Peter
Yes, I agree with that but there is no TV income in the other grades and that is what is hitting FFA hard as it costs plenty just to assemble these teams and get them decent laed-up games. Those distances are much greater than Oceania team face. Cheers Terry"
Who the hell stole my name and made this post... i have been reborn as MetalLegNZ (forum issues), but i did not post the above???
I'm actually undecided, but think for now until atleast the next world cup we should saty out of Asia. Build up a solid nest egg and then go to Asia.
People are saying we will make more money playing in Asia, but i'm not sure we will. We already host enough games at a lost, If we continued to lose money playing in Asia it could cripple us long term and dry up the cash... no wait, just saw how much the FFA are set to make... lets do it, in another 6 years (2 more world cups please)
Too many young players also getting looked at now to stop, build up a more solid reputation world wide so that scouts actually come here as well before we leave for Asia.....
But more important;y who stole my FN ID!! I can't even get it back!!
lol - just saw the date 2007...
Maybe i did write it...
Time to revisit every other post i've ever written to make sure i don't argue with myself again. My schzophrenia is bad enough let along having myself argue with myself about what i wrote, or didn't write, but actually did write.....
Time to self Med
This is very funny.
lol - just saw the date 2007...
Maybe i did write it...
Time to revisit every other post i've ever written to make sure i don't argue with myself again. My schzophrenia is bad enough let along having myself argue with myself about what i wrote, or didn't write, but actually did write.....
Time to self Med
I really wish there was a 'like' button. One would go to big pete on his efforts and research above and the other would go to MetalLegNZ(aka TouchMe) for making me laugh.
I really wish there was a 'like' button. One would go to big pete on his efforts and research above and the other would go to MetalLegNZ(aka TouchMe) for making me laugh.
We need to talk about Oceania.
1. Shambolic Oceania Nations Cup tournament run over one week, on the same sub-standard pitch, in blistering heat. Basically, a lottery.
2. Tahiti concede 24 goals in 3 games at Confeds Cup. Forget the patronising statements about them being 'plucky' and 'having a go' - it's a disgrace. It doesn't do them any good and doesn't do the tournament any good.
3. New Zealand miss Confeds Cup, partly through own incompetence but partly due to Point 1, severely damaging chances of qualifying for World Cup.
Yes, our kids get to qualify for lots of FIFA tournaments, but is that really doing them as much good as qualifying down a more competitive path and then actually being prepared when they get to a tournament?
Yes, the costs of travel in another arrangement might be higher but so might the rewards (TV money for one). Besides, there are probably options to limit the amount of travel other Oceania nations do until the later stages of qualifying, if they ever get there. Also, is there any obligation on us to worry about how the other Oceania nations will cope anyway?
So how do we sort this shit out?
We need to talk about Oceania.
1. Shambolic Oceania Nations Cup tournament run over one week, on the same sub-standard pitch, in blistering heat. Basically, a lottery.
2. Tahiti concede 24 goals in 3 games at Confeds Cup. Forget the patronising statements about them being 'plucky' and 'having a go' - it's a disgrace. It doesn't do them any good and doesn't do the tournament any good.
3. New Zealand miss Confeds Cup, partly through own incompetence but partly due to Point 1, severely damaging chances of qualifying for World Cup.
Yes, our kids get to qualify for lots of FIFA tournaments, but is that really doing them as much good as qualifying down a more competitive path and then actually being prepared when they get to a tournament?
Yes, the costs of travel in another arrangement might be higher but so might the rewards (TV money for one). Besides, there are probably options to limit the amount of travel other Oceania nations do until the later stages of qualifying, if they ever get there. Also, is there any obligation on us to worry about how the other Oceania nations will cope anyway?
So how do we sort this shit out?
We need to talk about Oceania.
1. Shambolic Oceania Nations Cup tournament run over one week, on the same sub-standard pitch, in blistering heat. Basically, a lottery.
2. Tahiti concede 24 goals in 3 games at Confeds Cup. Forget the patronising statements about them being 'plucky' and 'having a go' - it's a disgrace. It doesn't do them any good and doesn't do the tournament any good.
3. New Zealand miss Confeds Cup, partly through own incompetence but partly due to Point 1, severely damaging chances of qualifying for World Cup.
Yes, our kids get to qualify for lots of FIFA tournaments, but is that really doing them as much good as qualifying down a more competitive path and then actually being prepared when they get to a tournament?
Yes, the costs of travel in another arrangement might be higher but so might the rewards (TV money for one). Besides, there are probably options to limit the amount of travel other Oceania nations do until the later stages of qualifying, if they ever get there. Also, is there any obligation on us to worry about how the other Oceania nations will cope anyway?
So how do we sort this shit out?
See the way I look at this, if we ditched OFC for AFC, they will shut OFC down and split AFC into an EAST and WEST and we would be exactly where we are now.... lumped in with the island sides and throw in Australia and perhaps the likes of Guam, Indonesia. Playing the same teams and not going anywhere. At least at the moment, when we play those teams, we go somewhere.
See the way I look at this, if we ditched OFC for AFC, they will shut OFC down and split AFC into an EAST and WEST and we would be exactly where we are now.... lumped in with the island sides and throw in Australia and perhaps the likes of Guam, Indonesia. Playing the same teams and not going anywhere. At least at the moment, when we play those teams, we go somewhere.
perhaps even the 3rd round if we qualified for the world cup
And you believe they will keep that same format and have Tahiti, Fiji, Solomons (where there is no cash) fly to Palestine, Afghanistan....
Not a shit show.
Jeff - Round 1 of Asian qualifying (which is where most of the Island teams would be ranked) is only two games, a home and away tie against another team. The winners go through to Round 2, which is the same format. It's only in Round 3 that you get into pool play, which is where the travel starts to mount up. Most of the Oceania teams would be facing playing one away game, maybe two, if they were part of Asia. And Round 1 (and 2) could also be split into an East/West format to lessen the likely costs.
As pointed out above New Zealand would very likely get a bye to Round 2 at least.
FIFA makes a half-hearted defence of the status quo...
For me the issue isn't so much about Oceania's representation (or not) at FIFA tournaments but Oceania's competitiveness at those tournaments, which leads to the question of how Oceania qualifies for tournaments.
Although each tournament is slightly different as a general rule I'd like to see Oceania qualifying blended with Asian qualifying in a way that doesn't punish the Island teams too much but offers much greater competitive and commercial opportunities to the Oceania champions, even if that means not always winning through to the main event. For instance, for WC qualifying either the Oceania champs join Asian qualifying in Round 4 (or maybe even the top two from Oceania join Round 3), or all the Oceania teams join Asian qualifying in Round 1, 2, or 3 depending on rankings (NZ would probably join Round 3).
There's heaps of options to make qualifying paths much more meaningful without either confederation giving up any political power, which seems to be the main stumbling block.
FIFA makes a half-hearted defence of the status quo...
For me the issue isn't so much about Oceania's representation (or not) at FIFA tournaments but Oceania's competitiveness at those tournaments, which leads to the question of how Oceania qualifies for tournaments.
Although each tournament is slightly different as a general rule I'd like to see Oceania qualifying blended with Asian qualifying in a way that doesn't punish the Island teams too much but offers much greater competitive and commercial opportunities to the Oceania champions, even if that means not always winning through to the main event. For instance, for WC qualifying either the Oceania champs join Asian qualifying in Round 4 (or maybe even the top two from Oceania join Round 3), or all the Oceania teams join Asian qualifying in Round 1, 2, or 3 depending on rankings (NZ would probably join Round 3).
There's heaps of options to make qualifying paths much more meaningful without either confederation giving up any political power, which seems to be the main stumbling block.
That is looking at NZs potential move into Asia from Oceania's perspective - which might not be in the best interest of NZ to be a little selfish.
Valcke used an analogy:
"If we leave Oceania out of tournaments, then they have no chance at all - it would mean that you kill them," says Valcke. "It's like if you have a child and he is not talking as well as the others at school. To not disturb the good ones, we will put him in a room and we will wait for him to speak; he will never speak, he will never succeed. For a chance to improve or perform, you have to be in competition with the others."
Which is fair for Oceania as a whole but for NZ, using the same analogy, NZ Football is "in competition" with kids that can hardly speak and then when they get to the world event, they are blown away by the oratory skill of other nations.
I'm not talking about NZ moving into Asia specifically, although that's an option.
I'm talking about Oceania qualifying being blended into Asia qualifying at some point that makes sense and provides meaningful competition before Oceania representatives get to the main event. Most Oceania countries would probably not notice much difference. But the best ones could get more games at a level that actually improves their football.
Going back to that analogy - you wouldn't expect a 5 year-old child to attempt NCEA. But that's effectively what just happened with Tahiti. Nice experience for them but are they really better off for it?
I suppose it depends where you would expect Oceania to enter the Asian qualifying process for FIFA tournaments (and hopefully more than one team from Oceania).
However if Oceania is still treated as a separate confederation I don't see how they won't be allowed direct entry into the confederations cup and could be argued for other FIFA tournaments (CWC and WCs).
I don't see how Oceania and AFC could work if they are a separate confederation for AFC tournaments? If Oceania nations were to be eligible for AFC events (as well as qualification to FIFA events via AFC) then that basically means Oceania might as well cease to exist.
If only half spots are given to Oceania for all competitions, then they aren't really a confederation. More a half of a confederation, that blends with whichever confederation they enter qualifying into.
So logically, you may as well just make it official and merge Oceania into Asia.
I suppose it depends where you would expect Oceania to enter the Asian qualifying process for FIFA tournaments (and hopefully more than one team from Oceania).
However if Oceania is still treated as a separate confederation I don't see how they won't be allowed direct entry into the confederations cup and could be argued for other FIFA tournaments (CWC and WCs).
I don't see how Oceania and AFC could work if they are a separate confederation for AFC tournaments? If Oceania nations were to be eligible for AFC events (as well as qualification to FIFA events via AFC) then that basically means Oceania might as well cease to exist.
The Confederations Cup issue at a micro level was simply that the Oceania Nations qualifying tournament was a joke and led to a weak team getting through to be battered. Of course we now have exactly the same qualifying process for the Club World Cup so we haven't learnt a single thing from that (although I note that Oceania agreed that change prior to the Confeds Cup but have only just announced it. I wonder if Tahiti's performance might have caused a re-think?).
The Confederations Cup issue at a macro level is a tricky one because the idea is that each confederation has one rep at the tournament. But even then there are ways you could structure qualifying and/or the tournament itself to try and avoid the kind of 1-24 pasting Tahiti just got. At the CWC, for instance, the Oceania rep plays a play-off for the Quarter Final first and if they lose that's it.
For World Cup qualifying I can't see any reason why Oceania and Asian qualifying can't be merged in a way that gives all Oceania teams competition relative to their abilities, while also keeping costs in check, and also gives the Asian teams a direct run at a fifth qualifying spot with no inter-continental play-off required.
Edit: But crucially, retains the individual autonomy of each confederation.
I think we have got the most we could have in some respects out of Australia leaving Oceania and have gained more public recognition and global exposure.
However, that progress looks like it may now be stalling and will continue to be so until we get more high quality games for our age groups and national team respectively.
If China for example played here in NZ, i'm confident you'd get 30,000 fans watching (mainly Chinese fans, but hey) which would help coffers for NZF plus increased sponsorship opportunities, particularly through Asia as opposed to Oceania.
We need to look at this.
I agree. I don't think getting an easy ride to tournaments (whether it's us or another Oceania nation) and then getting pummelled is a good long-term strategy.
I think a lot may hinge on the upcoming inter-continental play-off. If we win, that's great, but it's going to be harder to bring people round to the idea of change. If we lose, I can see people being more prepared to look at it. If we lose badly, and thinking back to Tahitis recent performance, it might really speed things up.
Ideally, we win but we can still have a proper discussion about it.
I agree. I don't think getting an easy ride to tournaments (whether it's us or another Oceania nation) and then getting pummelled is a good long-term strategy.
I think a lot may hinge on the upcoming inter-continental play-off. If we win, that's great, but it's going to be harder to bring people round to the idea of change. If we lose, I can see people being more prepared to look at it. If we lose badly, and thinking back to Tahitis recent performance, it might really speed things up.
Ideally, we win but we can still have a proper discussion about it.
I suppose it depends where you would expect Oceania to enter the Asian qualifying process for FIFA tournaments (and hopefully more than one team from Oceania).
However if Oceania is still treated as a separate confederation I don't see how they won't be allowed direct entry into the confederations cup and could be argued for other FIFA tournaments (CWC and WCs).
I don't see how Oceania and AFC could work if they are a separate confederation for AFC tournaments? If Oceania nations were to be eligible for AFC events (as well as qualification to FIFA events via AFC) then that basically means Oceania might as well cease to exist.
The Confederations Cup issue at a micro level was simply that the Oceania Nations qualifying tournament was a joke and led to a weak team getting through to be battered. Of course we now have exactly the same qualifying process for the Club World Cup so we haven't learnt a single thing from that (although I note that Oceania agreed that change prior to the Confeds Cup but have only just announced it. I wonder if Tahiti's performance might have caused a re-think?).
The Confederations Cup issue at a macro level is a tricky one because the idea is that each confederation has one rep at the tournament. But even then there are ways you could structure qualifying and/or the tournament itself to try and avoid the kind of 1-24 pasting Tahiti just got. At the CWC, for instance, the Oceania rep plays a play-off for the Quarter Final first and if they lose that's it.
For World Cup qualifying I can't see any reason why Oceania and Asian qualifying can't be merged in a way that gives all Oceania teams competition relative to their abilities, while also keeping costs in check, and also gives the Asian teams a direct run at a fifth qualifying spot with no inter-continental play-off required.
Edit: But crucially, retains the individual autonomy of each confederation.
what exactly is the attraction of asia?
- i suspect that we believe that the organisation is not a joke? well, let me assure you that it is. still, much better than oceania...
- the playing standard would be higher, definitely
- more frequent games - awesome
- would we get more money from tv revenue? not sure about how this works
- anything else?
however,
- i suspect our clubs wouldn't be able to afford to compete in the asian champions league
- our national league will miss out on the almost guaranteed ofc champions league $$
- it would cost us more for the all whites to leg it around the place twice every four years for world cup and asian nations cup qualifying
- we would have little hope of qualification for the former, hence miss out on $$
- i assume that asian age grade qualifiers are not week long affairs like oceania? more cost here
what other factors need to be considered?
what exactly is the attraction of asia?
- i suspect that we believe that the organisation is not a joke? well, let me assure you that it is. still, much better than oceania...
- the playing standard would be higher, definitely
- more frequent games - awesome
- would we get more money from tv revenue? not sure about how this works
- anything else?
however,
- i suspect our clubs wouldn't be able to afford to compete in the asian champions league
- our national league will miss out on the almost guaranteed ofc champions league $$
- it would cost us more for the all whites to leg it around the place twice every four years for world cup and asian nations cup qualifying
- we would have little hope of qualification for the former, hence miss out on $$
- i assume that asian age grade qualifiers are not week long affairs like oceania? more cost here
what other factors need to be considered?
what exactly is the attraction of asia?
- i suspect that we believe that the organisation is not a joke? well, let me assure you that it is. still, much better than oceania...
- the playing standard would be higher, definitely
- more frequent games - awesome
- would we get more money from tv revenue? not sure about how this works
- anything else?
however,
- i suspect our clubs wouldn't be able to afford to compete in the asian champions league
- our national league will miss out on the almost guaranteed ofc champions league $$
- it would cost us more for the all whites to leg it around the place twice every four years for world cup and asian nations cup qualifying
- we would have little hope of qualification for the former, hence miss out on $$
- i assume that asian age grade qualifiers are not week long affairs like oceania? more cost here
what other factors need to be considered?
I agree with most of everything here except for this. I really don't think it would be harder to finish ahead of Saudi Arabia/Bahrain/Iran/Jordan/China/Uzbekistan (the teams we would be competing with for 2nd or 3rd in the final group stage) over a 10 game period, than to beat a CONCACAF (or possibly CONMEBOL in the future) country over 2 legs without having played a real competitive game of football for 3 years